This interview was conducted for Cel*Style Week, but due to a human error, it was not yet posted.
GC: Alright, could you go ahead and introduce yourself and how you happened to get involved in Cel*Style?
BL: OK. I’m Ben Lehman, I run These Are Our Games. Which is about as tiny a company as possible. As in: just me. Anyway, Jake Richmond and I have been talking for years about doing an imprint for anime-themed games. Me with Bliss Stage and him with Panty Explosion, it sort of seemed like we should team up. I think it was KumoriCon 2009 that we decided take our games to an anime con and see what happened. So Alexis Siemon, Jake, Nick, and myself all packed off to KumoriCon, and got a really good reception for our games.
Like, every table full to bursting. I think we ran Maid, Classroom Deathmatch, Panty Explosion, and Bliss Stage. So that night Jake and I were talking and going “we really need to get this imprint thing going.” And were batting around names. And came up with celstyle which seemed to work. So, uh, I guess I was there at the beginning. One of celstyle’s many genetic contributors 
GC: Heh. Nice. It’s definitely got an impressive start.
BL: I remember actually sitting down with Christian and going “you should make a catgirl themed Beast Hunters” and he was like “actually I’m working on Anima Prime …”
GC: So let’s talk about Bliss Stage, briefly. It looks like a huge hit.
BL: Does it?
GC: Well, from my perspective, at least.
BL: It’s remarkably popular for a game that’s been out of print five years. Hopefully should be fixing that soon, at least.
GC: So people will be able to buy physical copies of Bliss Stage again soon?
BL: Yeah, there’ll be a new edition (which I was expecting would take six months, instead took five years) pretty soon now. I’m waiting on some final pieces of fill-in art from Jake and the finalized layout from Shreyas. Then, of course, is the whole printing process. But there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.
GC: Yeah. What sorts of things did you feel made a new edition something worth making?
BL: Well, I had promised it to people, back in the very beginning.
GC: Ideas in Bliss Stage that were underdeveloped or dropped too early, or new ideas that you got later on?
BL: The first pre-orders I said “and I’ll give you the next edition free of charge.” There’s actually not a lot of change in terms of ideas. Most of the text is pretty similar. The primary difference is that there’s art, and there’s a few more optional rules. A little bit more attention is paid to players who only want to play anchors, for instance. The ambiguity of whether a broken relationship is worth 3x or 2x bliss is resolved. Tiny details like that. But Bliss Stage is, in a lot of ways, a delicate game. Too much systematic tinkering and it can break down.
GC: You mentioned optional rules. I’m curious about some of the optional rules that might be brought up.
BL: Well, for instance, the rules for pregnancy were revised after my proof-reader gave me a lecture on abortion politics. Now, you have to take a scene to develop a relationhship to a fetus. Rather than it just automatically happening. Which means that those relationships are really up to the players to define whether or not they matter. There’s also now rules for pilots fighting each other, both in and out of the dream. Although I don’t think people are going to like the in-dream fighting rules — they ratchet up Bliss pretty fast.
GC: Hah. Hey, sometimes things are most fun when they’re spiralling downward. That’s why people like Fiasco, right?
BL: I imagine, yeah.
GC: What do you figure is the biggest draw that Shin Bliss Stage will have for people who played the old one?
BL: Well, it’s available as a book, for one. It has all the typos and errors fixed. It has lovely art by Jake Richmond, and a much better and more readable layout by Shreyas Sampat. It’s also the definitive form of the game: probably never going to be another release or update. But my real hope with the new edition is not to sell it to people who already have the old one. Rather, I’d like to try to reach new audiences, particularly anime fans who have limited exposure to TRPGs or only know them as visual novels or computer RPGs. Which is I think what CelStyle is about, as a project.
GC: I think anime fans are definitely really receptive to TRPGs. We didn’t have a gaming club at my high school. We had an anime club that happened contain a gaming club inside it. Have you had people come up to you (or e-mail you) and talk about Bliss Stage or other Cel*Style games introducing them to TRPGs?
BL: Yes. Also a lot of people who do their role-playing games online, which is very foreign to me.
GC: Yeah, I’m one of them.
BL: But a lot of those play-by-chat or play-by-website people really like Bliss Stage. I think because of the scene structure. Although you’d be able to tell me about that, rather than the other way around!
GC: Switching the interview roles around briefly, online play’s a lot slower, and people are definitely more occupied with other things, so a scene structure helps to keep things focused since unlike at a table, you can’t see someone’s face to see how focused they are. Also, being able to type means you can take all the time you need to milk the scenery for all it’s worth or write and rewrite your dialog an actions until they read perfectly.
BL: *nod* Yeah. Bliss Stage already has a performative aspect to it, and I think that helps heighten that part of the game.
GC: One thing that does get a little tricky for online play, though, is the aspect of Bliss Stage where the game takes place in the actual city it’s being played in.
BL: Yes.
GC: Though this has lead to an interesting step where all the players actually create their own city.
BL: I always thought it would be neat to play a game which takes place over the internet.
GC: In general, or a Bliss Stage game where you splice the net into it?
BL: A bliss stage game where the location is “the internet.”
GC: I gotta admit I’m pretty interested in any and all ideas you might have for that.
BL: I have no real ideas about that. I guess you’d play people spread out over space. I’m not sure how intimacy building past 3 would work. Perhaps characters would take road trips through the post-apocalyptic waste to see each other?
GC: Certainly possible If I see anyone actually try this, I’ll let you know about it.
BL: Hah. OK. Anyway, do you have any more questions?
GC: Yeah. How do you feel about the visual novel currently in development?
BL: I haven’t followed it closely. I mean, obviously it’s a thrill to have someone making a thing out of your game. But I’ve been very hands-off about licensing. I basically said to Elliot “yes, you have my permission, here are the basic requirements (which were things like: don’t be racist), now go.”
GC: Hah, nice.
BL: So I look forward to playing it when it’s done But I haven’t taken a supervisory role with the whole thing.
GC: It should be interesting to see the first person who discovers the visual novel, then realizes there’s a tabletop game attached to it.
BL: *nod* Yes.
GC: What can you tell me about other Cel*Style games you’ve been working on? I understand there’s Clover (Based on Yotsub&) and Hot Guys Making Out (Which I assume is exactly what it says on the cover), but I haven’t read much about either of them.
BL: Yeah, there are three. Clover, which is based on Yotsubato, and I wrote originally as a gift for Ewen (translator of Maid, author of Magical Burst, Hikkikomori, etc.), because I know he liked the manga. It basically takes the formula of “this is a story about an energetic five year old girl and her happy childhood.” Which is an interesting challenge, from a gameplay perspective. When we write and role-play about childhood I think that there is a desire to make it “dark” and traumatic.
GC: American McGee’s Alice.
BL: By going “this is a story about a happy child” and acknowledging that, while sad stuff exists (like: where’s her mom?), that’s not what the game is about. And that opens up a whole lot of new play material which I think people are too scared to bring in otherwise. I mean, why would you share your happy memories of childhood if someone else is going to take a meat hook to it? Clover kind of opens that up. There’s a neat thing in play where people start out feeling that the whole exercise is a little bit silly, but then they really bond with these characters and their day-to-day lives. And issues like “we’re going to make mud pies” or whatever. Anyway, it’s a short game, it’ll probably be even shorter than GxB, but I think that it’s going to generate a lot of nice play.
GC: That sounds pretty neat. I know I’ll be looking forward to it. There aren’t too many heartwarming and silly games out there.
BL: Yeah, it’s true. Slice-of-life is an underdone genre, I think. One of the things that I’m really excited about in CelStyle is that we’re doing a lot of pretty underdone genres. Romance (HGMO, GxB), Slice of Life (Clover), psychic girl (Panty Explosion.)
GC: Japanese console RPG too with Anima Prime. It was something I was trying to find for years. I’m not kidding. I played The Returner’s Final Fantasy RPG years ago and thought it felt nothing like a JRPG. Alright, so tell me about HGMO.
BL: HGMO is a yaoi / BL game.
GC: I haven’t looked into it too deeply, but my first question is: “Why?”
BL: So a few years ago. I was talking with Alexis and Emily. And I was saying “I’m really frustrated that all RPGs that claim to be welcoming to girls are just ‘gender neutral.’ Like, oh, you can play a girl if you want to. How welcoming is that? If someone was serious about making RPGs welcoming to girls they’d write a game called ‘Hot Guys Making Out.’” And then they stared and me and Emily said “Ben, you could make that game.” Thus.
GC: That’s quite a story. Alright, so tell me about Hot Guys Making Out.
BL: Well, because of the genre it’s based on, it’s full of intense emotion and action. Also following from the genre, there’s a strong division between the characters and, in turn, their players. The uke character, Gonsalvo, in a normal turn can only give his inner monologue, express emotion, or try and fail to do something. He can’t act decisively or successfully. The seme character, Honoré, in a normal turn can only act directly and decisively. He can’t express his emotions except in actions, give his thoughts, or fail in doing anything. This gives a very interesting power split. Honoré is always the active character, whereas Gonsalvo is acted upon.
GC: Interesting. Is this a 2-player game, or is a GM involved?
BL: No GM. BL: It’s a 2-4 player game. BL: if there are extra players, they take the role of the Maid and the Butler. Who are supporters of the relationship, each in their own way.
GC: How do they behave?
BL: Their behavior is less restricted. So let me tell you about their special abilities. The maid, Maria, can give a character advice. And, if they act on her advice in the future, it works like a trump card. The butler, Olivier, directly confronts whatever is threatening the characters this session. As the rulebook says “often with violence.”
GC: Alright, so they get a bit more freedom, though their role is entirely to support the main couple.
BL: Right. The game is turn-based, and the turns are quite short, usually a sentence or two. So it’s quite fast moving. Play has a nice, snappy feel to it. And is kinda hot. As in: aside from the target audience of yaoi / slashfic fans, this game is unexpectedly popular with straight guys.
GC: So a little like Do: Piilgrims of the Flying Temple and Happy Birthday Robot, but considerably more flexible?
BL: Well, HBR, you’re definitely still playing a character, rather than just authoring story bits. A bit more like S/lay w/Me, actually. Oh, and just so the game doesn’t turn into vaguely-homoerotic action adventure, but stays true to the form, there’s a mechanic called “moments of passion” in which the intimacy of the relationship must escalate. A bit from Bliss Stage, there.
GC: Alright, so what might the general flow of a game work like?
BL: Okay. So let’s do the traditional first scene. You’re Gonsalvo. You’ve been whisked aware from your orphanage in the middle of the night by a mysterious man. Unspeaking, he drives you in a motorcar up into the mountains. It’s a rainy night. Thunder. You step out and see a palatial estate, with only a few lights within. Standing before you on the stoop, dressed in fine clothes, is the most beautiful man you’ve ever seen, his long blond hair wet from the rain. Now would be your turn. We’ll assume you have a high enough card to act, so you’d say something about your characters thoughts, or actions. Just a sentence or two. In this case, you’re limited to just thoughts and emotions.
GC: Interesting. So, let’s say Gonsalvo is frightened, but entranced.
BL: Oh, do it in first person.
GC: “Who is this mysterious man, I wonder? I want to run, but I need to stay.” It took me a little to come up with the most hackneyed internal dialog I could think of.
BL: Great. With the maid trailing behind holding up my umbrella, I come over and look at your face through the open door. “A shame he does not take after his father,” I say. “Show him to his room.” and I turn to go.
GC: “I look to the maid, confused and in need of answers.”
BL: OK, now let’s say that I didn’t have a high card. I can discard a card and say some environmental effect. That doesn’t have to do with my character. “She doesn’t look at you. The rain comes down, soaking you to the bone.” So yeah, that’s how it goes. Who gets to do what kind of move is mediated by cards.
GC: Interesting. The contrast between the two main characters in terms of behavior allowed by the rules isn’t something I’ve seen in any other games.
BL: I know that there’s some precedent to it. I’m going to be kicking myself in an hour for not thinking of where. But yeah, I’m pretty excited about the game. I’m also trying to make the game as easy to learn from the text as possible. I’d like to be able to put it next to GxB as games that I can just hand someone and, no matter their background or assumptions, they can learn how to play.
GC: Yeah. Between those and Clover, I think there’s some really good introductory games in Cel*Style Now, you talked about Clover and Hot Guys Making Out, but you mentioned earlier that there’s a third game in the works?
BL: Uh, yes. Title isn’t settled. It’s a psychological survival horror game. One player is an isolated survivor trying to reconcile themself with their guilty past. As well as dealing with monster attacks. The other players are Them, the monsters as well as representations of all the wrongs that the survivor has committed.
GC: I’m getting a Silent Hill 2 vibe off of this.
BL: Yes, it’s very Silent-Hilly. I’m pretty excited about it for a couple of reasons. One, it’s going to come with its own background music. Two, it’s got real-time combat. Also, I think it’s just a good, creepy, gut punch of a game. Probably will be called Unspeakable.
GC: Oh, awesome. Reflex-based mechanics aren’t something I ever see in RPGs. I’ve only run into them once: Sons of Liberty.This sounds pretty great. I’m wondering if you wouldn’t mind a longer talk about this, depending on how much material you have right now that you feel comfortable talking about.
BL: Unfortunately this is about what I got I’ll be happy to talk with you about it at a later date, though.
GC: Awesome. Thanks.
BL: Thank you.